7 Common Hiring Mistakes Churches Make

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Hiring is more art than science. That’s what one mentor told me years ago.

Is it?

It depends on who you ask.

At some point, you will walk through a hiring process as you look for a new employee or volunteer (if you work at a church or non-profit). Many pastors have no idea what they are doing regarding hiring.

And make no mistake, a bad hire can cost you, personally and as a church.

How much?

Some estimates range from 30% of the person’s salary to one that says it can cost $240,000. After one bad hire, I went back and calculated as best as possible and found that it cost (just my estimate) over $200,000. That was simply a financial look.

Once you throw in the time and emotional energy that you, the employee, or anyone who helped train them or dealt with them in the meetings that led to them leaving and then throw in the loss of momentum at your church and the loss of trust people have in you, and the loss of people leaving your church.

The cost is enormous.

And while there is no foolproof plan when it comes to hiring, there are some things pastors and churches can do to raise the likelihood of success.

Here are 7 hiring mistakes churches and pastors make:

Talk themselves into a hire. This isn’t just a church issue but one across the board in hiring.

But churches are notorious for talking themselves into hire for many of the reasons listed below. While there is a leadership mantra of “Hire slowly, fire quickly.” Churches tend to “hire quickly and fire slowly.” Is one right or wrong? No. Is one more “Christlike?” No.

Almost every frustration I’ve ever had with an employee was something I saw in the interview process and chose to overlook. Now, that doesn’t mean you are looking for a perfect hire or that your team won’t frustrate you (or that you won’t frustrate your team). But it does mean that you need to pay attention to those things.

Just like you can’t get everything you want in a job, you will also only get some of what you want in a hire. So, you must be clear about what you need versus what you want.

Assume culture and theological fit. It is easy to assume agreement on church culture and theological fit. Churches hear a candidate talk about a certain church or stream and think, “They fit us.” Or, if the candidate is a fan of ____ podcast, they must fit our church.

But not always.

The other aspect comes into play when you think about the layers of theology. If you are a charismatic church, how open does a candidate need to be to the gifts of the spirit to fit you? If you are a cautious but open church, how much is too much for you theologically in this area?

You cannot assume fit and match simply because you want to.

This means that you need to articulate your church culture clearly, what you do and don’t do, what it takes to be successful at your church, and what your goal as a church is. You must also know your closed-handed and open-handed theological stances to find someone who fits you.

Context mismatch. Every church is in a specific context and culture, and that context and culture determines the kind of staff you are looking for. Not everyone fits in a suburban, rural, or urban context. If your church is in one of those, you need to know who would fit best with you.

The same goes for the region of the country. Even if someone is a good fit in Texas, will they still be a good fit in Seattle and vice versa. There are many differences between Arizona and New England.

When we started a recent hiring process, I talked to someone who has been a part of hiring for 30+ years in New England, and he told me, “The most successful people here have lived in New England, have a family connection to New England or is from the pacific northwest or Minneapolis.” He said, “Almost everyone else struggles to fit here and understand the culture.”

The same was true in Arizona. Many church planters from the southeast struggled to understand and reach the culture.

Now, this isn’t a hard and fast rule, but churches often overlook the context in which they live. This is because they live in the water and don’t see it. It is just normal to them.

Ask questions about your context. Does the person understand what it means to live and work in your context? Do they understand the history and what determines the culture of your people?

Hire quickly because you’re desperate. This isn’t just something churches do but are guilty of. Each time I have made this mistake, I have paid dearly for it.

A few things might happen: you suddenly lose a leader, your ministry grows, and you need someone to jump in. No leader is better than the wrong leader.

But just because you need someone doesn’t mean you should hire just anyone.

Take time, check their references, and ask questions about their character and abilities. Listen to any checks in your gut or pushback those on the interview team give. Everyone sounds amazing in their interviews and on their questionnaires, but are they being truthful about their experiences and abilities?

One practice a mentor told me that has proved helpful is when you are narrowing in on a candidate for a job, have a meeting all about why you wouldn’t hire that person. Take the other side.

It is easy to talk yourself into hiring someone, but taking a step back to ensure you get all the information is helpful.

Write a job description for someone instead of what you need or want. Too often, churches write a job description to fit someone instead of doing the work to determine what they need or want.

What will often happen is you have a volunteer who is there and doing a great job. So, you offer them the job. But what makes someone a great volunteer might make them a mediocre staff member.

What churches do, though, is they want someone who is a visionary leader, a great counselor, a great teacher, and a great manager with some administrative gifts. That person does not exist. You can get one or two of those things, so you must decide. This can be hard to discern, but you need to decide upfront what you are looking for to find it. 

Hire for the season you’re in instead of the one you’re going into. What season are you in as a church? What season are you going into? Do you need a builder, a maintainer, or someone to turn the ship around in an area or ministry? The answer to these questions determines what kind of person you hire. 

And make no mistake, one size does not fit all. 

Many churches now find themselves in a place where it takes a lot of energy to do ministry, more than in 2019, and many of the people in ministry don’t have that kind of energy. So what do you do? This is where it is important to know where you are in the life cycle of your church

Make a hire based on feeling instead of data. This is a very common one for churches because we make it spiritual. We hear someone say, “God called me here.” Or “This feels right to me.” While those are important, you need to test that out.

The best thing you can do is determine at the beginning what kind of data would make someone effective in this role: how much experience in leading teams, teaching, worship leading, making graphics, etc. do they need to have? In 12 – 24 months, what will make this person successful or unsuccessful? Then, find data to support candidates and ask questions about these things. If there is one thing I wish churches would change in their hiring processes, this would be it. This one switch has made all the difference for me. 

Lastly, throughout the process, keep pulling up what you say you want and ask, “Is this the person?” The person you are interviewing might be the best candidate out of everyone you interview, but that doesn’t mean they are who you want. 

Will this guarantee you find the right person? No. 

But doing these things will increase the chances that you will find the person you need for the next season of ministry. 

Ripe for Change

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When I started at CCC, I read as many books on transitions and leading change as possible. One of the things they talked about is how new leaders will want to make changes, maybe even a lot of changes, but you need to know when to make those changes.

One of the key tasks for any leader, especially a brand-new leader, is figuring out what to change and when to make that change.

Leaders make changes. Leaders see things before others and the things that need to change or shift to get somewhere. The issue isn’t seeing what needs to change but knowing when to make that change.

So how do you know when to make a change? When something is “ripe for change.”

In one of my favorite leadership books, Leadership on the Line, Ronald Heifetz says: 

What determines when or whether an issue becomes ripe? How does it take on a generalized urgency shared by not just one but many factions within the community? Although there are many factors, we have identified four key questions; What other concerns occupy the people who need to be engaged? How deeply are people affected by the problem? How much do people need to learn? And what are the senior authority figures saying about the issue?

What other concerns occupy the people who need to be engaged? Leaders, like all people, have blinders and only see certain things. It is important to get different perspectives on changes because the thing you want to change or think is the next thing may not be the biggest thing your people are thinking about or seeing.

You can cut your legs off if you make the wrong change.

When I came, I listened to what people were talking about and what they said about hopes for the future. I also interviewed and surveyed over 50 people in our church, so I could get an idea of what the people of our church were thinking about and seeing.

That doesn’t mean they are right, but what you see as a leader also doesn’t make you right.

For a new pastor, this could be about starting a new ministry, remodeling the building, updating the parking lot, or changing the music style.

I asked each church I interviewed, “If all of your prayers for this church got answered, what would this church look like?” This question is a great way to understand what the people in a church are seeing and thinking about.

How deeply are people affected by the problem? One thing pastors and leaders do too often is change things or die on hills that aren’t that big of a deal.

We do that because we are passionate about it, think it’s a great idea, or saw something at a conference that we “just have to do.” I’ve reviewed changes I made in Tucson, or things I thought were a big deal, and shook my head. Most things in the church are not worth dying on. So choose wisely the things that you change. 

The best thing to change is the pain points most people see or feel. 

One question that I have used since moving to New England is to ask, “If I don’t do anything about this, will it matter in two years?”

This question has slowed me down to ask if it matters. Some things need to be changed immediately; if you don’t do something, it might be fatal to your church. By asking this question, it also helps put me in the future of what matters. 

How much do people need to learn? Pastors and leaders are notorious for making a change without educating anyone on the change or the reason for the change. And then, we get angry with our people for “not being on board.”

Pastors, remember that whatever change you are making or considering, you have been thinking about, researching, and getting excited about for months or years. Your people will also need time to fully embrace what you are doing. 

So educate them. Share the resources you’ve used, the books you’ve read, or the podcasts you’ve listened to. Expose your people to the changes in your heart and mind that led to the change. 

And what are the senior authority figures saying about the issue? The people in your church with formal and informal authority, what do they say? Are they on board? Do they see what you see?

Leaders who skip this part will do so at their peril. 

When you make a change, especially as a new leader, people with complaints won’t come to you. They will go to those with authority and influence, the ones who have been at the church longer than you have. You need to have them on board so they can help answer questions and run interference for you in a change. 

Red Flags in a Job Search

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So, you’re searching for a job. You are excited, talking with churches and maybe narrowing down the list of potential places to move. 

It is easy in a job search to talk yourself into a place. You might imagine that it is better than where you are, or that you can be the hero that finally does what no other pastor did before at that church. Don’t buy those mirages. Make sure you ask the right questions to find a church’s heart. 

But, how do you see through your emotions and desires to see red flags that you might be missing?

Now, before listing these out, let me say these red flags aren’t necessarily a reason not to take a job, but things you need to pay attention to, even though they aren’t always obvious. 

You don’t want to live there. I think this is a big deal. I remember talking to a large church in the midwest. I clicked with the elders and team there, and they were renovating their building and making it more prominent, but as I talked with Katie about it, she said, “But you don’t want to live there.” I got defensive and started to tell her all the reasons we wanted to be at that church, and then she said, “But you’d still have to live there.” 

Now, we don’t always get to choose where we live, and sometimes, the doors to the place we want to live don’t open. We tried in our search to move to several areas that were closed to us. Sometimes, the family determines where you can or can’t live. But, as a pastor, you need to live in that place and love the people and the culture that makes up that place. 

Make sure you want to live there, and that you like the worst season of the year there. Because it will be winter, or a blazing hot and humid summer. 

The elders are mad at the previous pastor. In my first conversation, I could tell the elders were still angry at the last pastor in one church I talked to in our search. They weren’t mad at what he did or carried any bitterness from his time; they were furious that he left them. 

Listen to how the people talk about the previous pastor and what stories they tell. Do they tell stories of a mythical time you won’t be able to replicate? Do they tell stories of hurt? Anger? Bitterness? This is a red flag because some churches are so hurt and don’t know it. Some churches need more time without a pastor to truly understand what they had and took for granted. Some churches must deal with their hurt and not take it out on the next pastor. 

As a pastor, you need to know what you are walking into in this regard. You will be the one to pastor these people through whatever feelings they have about the previous pastor(s). 

Tons of turnover. Ask about staff, elder, and volunteer turnover. One church I talked to had over 50% of its staff turnover in three years. No matter how big or small the staff, that’s a significant number. In this church, it was over 20 staff members. When I asked questions about it, there were good reasons and stories. However, it also revealed some things about the culture. It is easy to spiritualize staff transitions in a church, but you must ask questions about it and what it reveals about the culture. 

Long-tenured staff. The flip side of the turnover coin is a staff with no turnover. 

While this can be a healthy thing for staff, it can also be a red flag for a new staff member coming in. What has happened to previous new employees? Did they last? Why or why not? How open is this staff to new ideas and ways of doing things?

You meet someone you don’t click with. Depending on who this person is, it may not matter. But pay attention to people you don’t connect with in an interview process. Are they powerful? Influential? What rubbed you the wrong way? 

This person will one day be a part of your staff, board, or church, so make sure you click with people. 

They don’t want to change. Every church that hires a new pastor says, “We want to change and reach new people.” But do they? Like all things a church says, ask questions about it. Ask what change means to them, what kind of new people they want to reach, and what things they are willing to change and not change for this to happen. 

Lastly, talk yourself out of it. 

Here’s what I mean. A friend who does a ton of hiring for his job told me that one of the things he encourages search teams to do is to figure out why they wouldn’t hire a candidate. Just like it’s easy to talk yourself into a job, it is easy to talk yourself into a candidate. So, create a list of why you shouldn’t move or take a position. Do some opposition research on a place. If you have difficulty doing that, ask your spouse or a friend to help you with it. They might see things you don’t see. 

How to Interview a Church

Over the last several months, I have been interviewing with churches as we sought our next step. I learned a lot about interviewing and the questions to ask in the process. It can be hard to ask questions. First of all, by the time you ask questions in the interview you are tired. You have answered theological and leadership questions, shared your story and what God is doing in your life and that can be emotionally draining.

So, you need to make sure you plan your questions. Don’t show up and throw out a random question or two. And don’t ask 0 questions, that is a sign you aren’t interested in the job. If you feel like you didn’t get to ask all your questions, set up a separate time for you to interview them. I spent hours asking questions of the team at Community Covenant Church in the process before making a decision.

Remember, you are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you.

Below are my favorite questions that I asked each church. This was separate from my theological and philosophical questions and separate from finding the heart of a church.

1. If money wasn’t an issue and the Holy Spirit answered every prayer you have for your church, what does this church look like in 5 years? I love this question because it causes the team to sit back and dream. I heard so many great answers to this question over my months of interviewing. But what you are listening for, especially if you are interviewing for a lead pastor role, is where this group of people would like their church to go. Because as the leader, they are hoping you will take them there.

Each time I listened to this answer I asked myself, do I want to go there? Do I want to be a part of that church in the future? I didn’t hear anything heretical from any church I talked to, but I did hear answers that made me think, “that sounds nice, but I don’t want to go there.” This is an incredibly clarifying question.

2. What is one thing you hope I do or change? What is one thing you hope I don’t do or change? These two go together. As a leader you will bring about change. You are supposed to. But you need to be careful about what changes you bring. As a new leader, you have a great opportunity to bring fresh eyes to a ministry, to see things in a different way. You also have a period of time (a honeymoon it’s often called) to bring about new ideas.

But you need to do them carefully.

Hearing what people hoped I would change or do was really helpful. The second question helped me to see what is off-limits, what matters to a church.

3. What makes an employee successful at this church? I think you need to ask this question of a lot of different people during the interview process. Here’s why: I took a job once and in the interview process I got one answer from the leadership team of the church and I got a different answer from the admins in the church. Here’s why that matters: You need to know how people will evaluate you, but you also need to know how things actually get done. Sometimes they line up and sometimes they don’t.

4. Describe someone that would not fit the culture of your church. Again, you are trying to ask open-ended questions that paint a picture. If you ask, “Tell me about your culture” you will often hear what you want to hear or what they think they should say as a church. This question will cause the team to think back to employees who didn’t make it, people who upset the DNA and “the way things are done here.”

5. Describe how a difficult leadership situation was handled. You want to find out how conflict is handled in the church. Every church has conflicts. You will have conflicts at some point with a coworker, another elder, or a family in the church. How is that handled? How is sin handled? The way past situations were handled will give you a clue as to how future situations will be handled until you are able to influence the culture. It will also tell you how they handle sin and extend grace, and what compassion in a church looks like.

6. What is your ideal pastoral family? The reason I like to phrase it this way is it causes them to tell a story. If you ask, “What are your expectations for my wife and kids?” they might try to answer it in the way you want. Yes, they still might do that. But this way, you allow them to think about what is their ideal pastoral family?

7. Why do new people come back to your church? This question helps you to see a few things: do they have new people that come to their church? Do they get information from those guests? Do they track it and utilize it? This question also helps you to see what the community around the church might think of the church.

Three final tips:

  • Define the words they use. Churches are very good at throwing out buzzwords like relevant, collaborative, humble, generous, etc. So when they do, ask them to define those words. For example, when a church says it is generous, ask who experiences that generosity. Is it the staff? The community around them? The church itself?
  • Find the influencer. This is not really a question you can ask but something you must discover at any church you are interviewing: Who is the biggest influencer in the church? I made the mistake once in an interview process of assuming I knew the answer to this and it bit me once I took the job. The biggest influencer is not always the person who sits at the top, has been there the longest, or has the most visible power. But every organization, church, and team resembles someone. Figuring out who that person is will be crucial to your success in a new role.
  • Get financial and attendance data. I realize that coming out of covid this can be hard and not 100% accurate, but it is important. It tells a story, that’s what data does. I interviewed with one church that described themselves as growing and healthy but then they hit covid. However, as I dug into their data it showed they grew a lot in 2016 – 2018, plateaued and started to decline in 2019 and then hit covid. When I asked what happened in 2019, they pushed back and said that was an aberration. Maybe. But it is important to hear what the church thinks its data says, what story they think it tells.

Final thought: Know what answers you are looking for when you interview a church. They know what answers they want to hear from you. What will be a deal-breaker for you? What will cause a red flag to wave? My favorite answer, and one thing that stood out when I interviewed the team at Community Covenant, came when I asked them what would make me successful in 3 years. One of their elders said, “That your family would be glad you moved here.” When I asked that question of every other church, no one mentioned my family. That isn’t a deal breaker, but it was a big thing for me in this move. You need to know what those things are for you. 

Links for Leaders 11/3/17

It’s the weekend…finally. The perfect time to grab a cup of coffee and catch up on some reading. Below, you’ll find some articles I came across this week that I found helpful as a leader and parent and hope you do as well.

Before diving into those, in case you missed them this week. Here are the top 3 posts from my blog this week that I hope you find helpful:

Now, onto the articles I came across that I hope will help you:

Trevin Wax shares The Boy Scouts and the Disappearance of Paths as they’ve recently announced they will now allow girls to join the boy scouts. As my kids have gotten older, we’ve talked more and more about paths, passages, etc., which I think are crucial for kids and something that is lost in our culture.

Hiring is difficult for most pastors and leaders. Marty Duren has 15 questions to ask a potential hire at your church. Many of these are normal ones most churches ask, but there were a few that were new to me.

I’ve mentioned before that Katie and I have been spending a lot of time talking about technology and the role it plays in our family and with our kids. I’ve really appreciate the insights from Jon Acuff on this and he shares The first social media challenge your kids will face, that is incredibly insightful.

I’m reading Sam Storms new book Practicing the Power: Welcoming the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in Your Life, which has been incredibly helpful. He wrote a post this week about the relationship between Jesus and the Holy Spirit that is great and I think a very overlooked part of Christianity. 

I have a daughter and so dating is something I’ve been thinking about and how I prepare her for it. Most of what Christians, especially dad’s have to say on the topic is ridiculous and fear based. With good reason, but that’s why I appreciated this article from Jen Wilkin on On Daughters and Dating: How to Intimidate Suitors. I love how she champions raising a strong woman. We need more of that, not less.

How to Survive a Challenging Season

leadership challenges

All of us have lived through a challenging season. You might be in one now, just coming out of one or waiting for yours to happen. (Only the truly pessimistic of us are really waiting, but you get the idea.)

They can happen when we least expect it: a disruption in our career or finances, a child that is hard to parent, a spouse who all of a sudden becomes distant, a sickness we didn’t expect or plan for, or simply life not going as we planned.

Challenges.

They are relational, financial, spiritual, emotional, and physical.

They know no limits. Challenges have no heart, so they aren’t worried about you and your survival.

Here are some questions I ask myself as I’m going through a challenging season:

  1. What is God trying to teach me in this season? It is easy to get angry in a challenging season and blame the person you think caused the it. You may be right, but doing that will not help you for very long. Eventually that will exhaust you, and you’ll still be in a challenging season. So take a day, be angry, and then wake up tomorrow and start looking forward. By asking this question you begin to get to what God is trying to do, which is helpful because it takes our eyes off ourselves. God does not waste experiences and moments. He uses them for his glory and our good.
  2. What is God preparing me for by having me in this season? Because God doesn’t waste moments, what we walk through today is helpful for tomorrow. Begin looking forward, looking and asking God for what He is doing.
  3. What is God’s invitation to me in this season? This question comes from Jim Cofield in The Relational Soul: Moving from False Self to Deep Connection. This has been a powerful reminder to me in moments of pain and hurt.

In his book Leadership Pain: The Classroom for Growth, Samuel Chand lists five things we know about God or learn through difficult seasons:

  1. God never abandons us, even when we can’t sense his presence.
  2. Our faith and character are developed most powerfully in times of adversity.
  3. God sometimes delivers us from pain, but more often he delivers us through it.
  4. Life’s most defining moments are usually painful experiences.
  5. We do not grow in those moments by default.

How to Ace a Video Interview

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It used to be that if you were interviewing, you just had to be good on the phone or in a face to face interview. Now, the game has changed. Whether you are interviewing for a job or being interviewed for a show, you might find yourself on a video chat and when that happens, many of the rules change.

Here are 4 ways to help you succeed in a video interview:

1. Dress appropriately. Remember, this isn’t a phone interview so they can see you. Comb your hair, iron your shirt, look presentable. If you are doing a video interview, dress like you would if you were going to an office for an interview. I remember one video interview we did over the summer and I couldn’t see the person’s eyes. All I could think of was, we can’t hire him, he isn’t even looking us in the eyes.

2. Check your equipment. Your equipment will make or break a video iinterview This doesn’t mean you need a TV quality studio with an HD camera, but make sure you test your equipment. Do a practice run with someone, check the volume, make sure you can hear the people asking you questions. Look at what is in the camera and what they will see, because what we see on your end will tell us what you want us to know about you. One person we interviewed kept going in and out so we couldn’t hear them. Another one was poorly lit and looked like a criminal. Another person did the interview in their bedroom with an unmade bed in the background. Remember: everything communicates so make sure you are sending the right message.

3. Be overly excited. Because you are on a video, it is harder to hear the energy in your voice or see it on your face or feel the energy you will normally have in a face to face conversation. We can’t shake hands to make a connection so you have to do it otherwise. In addition, look at the camera. Nothing is worse than the feeling someone is looking at something else while talking to you. I know this will feel weird for you because it means you will be staring at yourself on a screen, but that is the way it goes.

4. Ask them questions. I say this in every post I’ve written about interviewing, but ask the people interviewing you questions, even if you know the answers. It shows you care and are interested in them and what they are doing, not just getting the job.

I’ll be honest, I think you lose something crucial in a video interview, but it is also unavoidable in the world we live in. Because of that, you need to become incredibly at video interviewing to get ahead.

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Why You Aren’t Ready for What’s Next

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When I was 25 I was a young, punk of a leader. I had a Master’s degree and had been a part of large, successful ministries. I was always the smartest person in the room (in my mind and I made sure others knew it). I also had had a relatively easy life up until this point.

I was sitting in an interview with a large church for a student pastor position. The interview was going well and I thought I would for sure get the job. The executive pastor was getting ready to wrap up the interview when he asked if anyone had any final questions. The lead pastor had been in the interview the entire time but hadn’t said a word. He looked at me and said, “I have one question.” I was ready to talk vision or strategy, but his question caught me off guard. He looked at me and said, “Tell me your deepest hurt.”

I was silent.

He then said, “Tell me about your deepest wound.”

I stumbled for an answer.

While I had been hurt, I had never really been abused or beaten. I wasn’t abandoned or from a broken home. My life had been easy up until this moment. I gave him a rather lame answer that I can’t even remember.

After my answer he said, “Thanks Josh, but we won’t be hiring you. I’m afraid of a leader who can’t name his deepest hurt because I don’t know if he’s past it, but I also don’t know what he’ll do when he meets it.”

Little did I know, the next 3 years after this moment, I would encounter hurts and pain I had never dreamed of.

Fast forward 10 years and I’m on the other side of the table of interviewing people. One of the questions I ask each person is, “Tell me about your deepest pain. What do you do when life hurts? When God seems silent? What you can’t connect with your spouse? When your ministry feels like a failure?”

Like that lead pastor, I’m scared of leaders who stumble through this answer.

Why?

Because they will face a desert, they will face failure, they will come up against their deepest pain at some point and I don’t know how they’ll respond.

This right here is why many people fail to move forward in life, fail to capitalize on their gifts or see the doors open to them that they wish to have open. 

We like authentic people and leaders, people who have been wounded as we have but have found a way to move forward from it. Who aren’t scarred by it, they are marked by their past, but they aren’t destroyed by it.

There is something about a leader who has faced what we have faced and come out the other side. We want to be around them, we want to be like them, we want to follow them to where they are going.