When you interview at a church, you are putting your best foot forward. You look your best, sound your best, tell all your best stories and talk about your strengths as a person and a leader. The church is doing the same thing. They are talking about their potential, what God has done, what they hope God will do, and how amazing and friendly their church is.

And this is normal.

But the reality isn’t always that way. You and the church aren’t as amazing as you sound or appear. The stories you and they tell aren’t lies; you are all just glossing over some things.

One of the things I learned over the last season as I interviewed for Pastor roles in churches around the country is how to find the heart of a church. Before you take a job and move your family (possibly across the country) it is important that you make sure your desires and the desires of the church line up. Do you have the same passions? This is different from the theology and philosophy of ministry. This is getting at that sneaky thing called fit.

So, how do you determine fit? How do you make sure that you see through the feeling you get on a call to really make sure that your heart and the heart of the church line up?

Here are a few things that helped me:

1. Pay attention to the questions they ask. The questions a church asks will tell you so much. It will tell you what they think is important, what kind of pastor they are looking for and what kind of church they are. If a church asks a lot of questions about your family or marriage, they tell you about some of their expectations for you and your family. Or maybe they are talking about a wound they have because their last pastor had an issue in that area (more on that later). If they ask many theology questions that are big issues to them but aren’t to you, that is communicating something important. Pay attention to it.

2. Ask about their dreams and desires as a church. One of the most important questions I think you can ask a prospective church is, “If money wasn’t a barrier and the Holy Spirit answers every one of your prayers for your church, what does it look like in 5 years?” Here’s why this question is so important: This question tells you where they are hoping their church goes, what the promised land is for their church, and as the possible next lead pastor they are hoping you will take them there. I remember talking to several churches and asking this question and thinking, “That’s a great answer, but I don’t want to go there.”

3. Determine which values are real and which ones are aspirational (and try to determine if the aspirational ones are real or just ones they think they should have.) Every church has values. Some values are real and some are ones they hope are real (aspirational), and some are ones they think they should have because they are a church. Every church values discipleship and evangelism. But not every church practices those things. Ask questions around definitions. Ask for examples. When they use buzzwords like authenticity, community, family, relevant, ask what those words mean to them and how they get played out. Every church would say generosity is important but is that generosity directed at the staff, the church, the world around the church? Who feels that generosity? This doesn’t mean you take a church off your list because of values (although it might), but values will help you see the church’s culture and how they operate.

4. Pay attention to how they communicate. In an interview, how you communicate to a church tells the church something about you. Are you punctual? Do you get back to them in a good amount of time? The same is true for a church. I talked with one church and then didn’t hear from them for 4 weeks. When they finally got back to me about another interview, I pulled back. The lack of communication told me something about the church and how it operated. Remember, in an interview churches are putting their best foot forward, so if something feels off in an interview, there’s a good chance there is something off.

5. Listen to how they talk about their previous pastor. The way a church talks about their previous pastor is also how they might one day talk about you because you will be a previous pastor one day. But in how they talk about their previous pastor, they tell you what happened, what they are looking for, and if they have grieved the loss of that pastor and are ready to move forward. Many churches are not yet ready for a new pastor, which often leads to being an unintentional interim pastor.

Too often, potential pastors simply look at theology and philosophy of ministry. While those are very, very important, the heart of a church is how those play out, and lining up with a potential church in that way is just as important for a pastor and their family.